Saturday, July 10, 2010

Battle Report #3

As mentioned earlier last Thursday I went in to get a game in for 8th edition at 2750 points. And found Tyler who owns the Warriors of Chaos. Now if you ever read BoLs they have many great articles, one that talks about a prediction on the tiers of armies in the 8th edition (HERE) As you can see the Warriors of Chaos are right there on top. Probably because of their awesome initiative, and high overall stats.

My first two battle reports this month were already against the Chaos Warriors, and my opinion of them wasn't so high. So this time, I allowed my Tyler to see my list, and told him about all the Lords, Heros and units that he would have to deal with. I also encouraged him that he should build the best list possible, so that I would be that more challenged. And of course if he had no models to proxy, i had extra bases and models to allow him to proxy. I was really hoping to get beat down, though I had my doubts that I would get beaten too easily. But we shall see.

Skaven 2748.5
Mordred the Grey Seer (General)
Throt the Unclean
Queek Head-taker


(group 1) 8 Rat Ogres with 4 pack masters
(group 2) 8 Rat Ogres with 4 pack masters
25 Clan Rats
21 Slaves with Mus and shields
25 Stormvermin Body guard with full command

(group 3) 8 Rat Ogres with 3 Pack Masters
(group 4) 8 Rat Ogres with 2 Pack Masters

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warriors of Chaos
Lord and Heros:
Lvl 4 Sorcerer Lord
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut
Lvl 2 Nurgle
Wulfrick the wanderer

2 units of 11 Chaos Warriors
10 War hounds

5 Chaos Knights (this is where he put his Chaos Lord on Juggernaut)

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
Hell cannon

To start, we rolled to see how much terrain we would have on the board. A die rolled a 6 which means 10+ pieces of terrain. Next we rolled what would be the terrain, we ended up with the following (Note we also rolled a 12 which gives you a building, 2 obstacles and a the hauted mansion mentioned below):

3 Mysterious Forest
1 Mysterious River (Got the T. Raging Torrent that gave unit +3 init, but had to roll for dangerous terrain), and we deployed it straight through the middle of the battle field
2 Sinister Status (These were nasty)
2 Buildings
1 mist wreathed swamp (Very deadly)
Acropolis of Heros
Haunted Mansion
2 Obstacles

Where to put all this? Well we managed, and we putting alot of stuff through the middle and in deployment area, which happens to be very critical because up next we rolled to see what type of match this was going to be. We rolled a 2, which is the Breaking Dawn (or something like that) Basically all troops just wake up where ever they were sleeping for the night, and are deployed in a random zone((1) left flank, (2) right flank (3-5)center, if a 6 was rolled you got to choose a zone) on your side of the board. The person who goes first lays down all his army first, then the second guy lays downs his. I went first. Unfortunately all but the cannon, slaves and the clanrats and stormvermin were placed in the middle, basically all the rat ogres cannon and doomwheel ended up in center, which is kinda blocks since there were a bunch of buildings and forest near the middle. Which also kinda sucks because each center zone had a sinister statue in it (which does d6 str 4 hits to each unit within 6inches). Fortunately Tyler's deployment area (which he placed) had the deathly swamp in there also. But it didn't matter much because he rolled a bunch of 6s and got the majority of his troops on the flanks with only a 2 of them in the center (the warriors).

After deployment, it was a sight to be seen, and I wish I had my camera on me, next time I will (hopefully)

Now we roll to see who goes first, on a roll of 6, Tyler goes first, anything else, i would, but of course a 6 was rolled.

Turn1 (The awakening)
Warriors of Chaos:
With so much stuff on the field , he tried to maneuver towards me. He does get hit by the Sinister Statue that was placed in this center deployment area, doing about 80 points of damage to one of his chaos knights. (Ha, i haven't gone and im ahead already )
On my left flanks, he had his warhounds and Dragon Ogre and hell cannon, on my right flanks he had his choas nights marching, Chosen and Marauders. In the center were his two units of chaos warriors who march straigh up avoiding any forest.

During the Magic phase he rolls he only gets 5 magic dispel dice, and doesn't get anything off.
Shooting phase
Tyler carefully places his hell cannon template over my clanrats that had my grey seer, and gets a direct hit. Killing 13 of the clan rats. The grey seer barely passes the panic test, and holds strong.

Movement phase, I try to get all my units out to the flank so that I can combat his troops. With his Dragon and warhounds facing my seer and a unit of slaves on the left flanks, I take two of my rat ogre (group 1 and 3) units and march them toward the dragon so that I can hopefully block him from getting to my seer, and my other rat ogres I sent off to the right to help queek with the matchup with the Chosen and the chaos knights who on coming up my right flank. With Queek and his Bodyguard on my right flank, eyeing wulfrick who is also on the same flanking sides he marches forward hoping to show he is no dead beat.
My doom wheel rolled a 13, and marching straight forward in the middle of the battle field towards his warriors.
My Warplightning cannon was also placed Center, and it takes a wounds from the Sinister Statue placed in the center of the zone.

Magic phase, the Seer gets of Wither on the warhounds dropping their toughness to 2, all other spells were dispelled.

Shooting, The cannon rolls a miss on the second roll, making the short disperse, and the doomwheel takes out 3 warriors of chaos at str 10

Turn 2:(the Charge)
Tyler decides to charge my unit of stormvermin with his Chosen, he also gets +3 initiative because his army is mostly in the river, and his Warhounds get a charge on my unit of slaves.
He moves forward with his dragon, as his warhounds were blocking his charge to the grey seer, and instead marches towards them. (Scary)
His warriors advances towards doom wheel but had a failed charge on it.
and his other units get in position to attack the next round.

Magic phase:
He gets off infernal gateway, but luckily I dispell it. Other than that, he didn't have enough dice to cast anything else useful.

His cannon decide to shoot the rat ogres that were headed toward his dragon, and does 5 wounds to them, dropping one and heavily damaging another.

Queek makes his challenge the champion of the Chosen, and does 6 wounds to him (over kill) but the champion was wielding an item that gave him ASF, and was able to get one wound off on Queek.
As for the unit combat, the wounds were pretty match, but I won combat because I out numbered him and had overkills. But he made his break test, so he wasn't too worried.

The other combat was with the slaves and warhound. Slaves managed to do 3 kills, and the warhounds got 5.


This time the cannon doesn't take a hit from the statue, and decides to stay put

The Doomwheel charges a unit of warriors that had his Sorcerer Lord in it, And the Rat ogres (group 2 and 4) on my right flank move closer to combat. On the left flank, the rat ogres(group 1) engage the dragon blocking it from getting to the seer. and group 2 of the rat ogres decide to move towards the other unit of chaos warriors that had a lvl 2 nurgle in it.

The Seer gets off plague on the warhounds, which they must pass a toughness test with a toughness of 2. All but two warhounds survive, also since they were in combat the slaves had to take a test, where all but 10 die( ill take that), after which the spell ends.
All other magic was countered including the scorch spell which was dispell scrolled.

Cannon hits target, but only with str 2, and does no wounds, and the doomwheel is able to take out 3 more warriors of chaos

The slaves finish off the warhounds and queek and the stormvermin bodygaurd tears break and pursue the Chosen and run into the Maruders that has Wulfrick waiting in the wings.

Mean while on the other side, the Rat Ogres(group 1) charge the flanks of the nasty looking dragon shaggoth, and get a couple wounds dealt to it while lose a couple more members of its squad.

The doomwheel only gets two impact his, but make them count, and the warriors dont damage the wheel but hold its ground.

Turn 3 (the decisive moment)
The warriors decide to make one last push, have the chaos knights ram into a unit of rat ogres(group 2), and having their only other unengaged unit (other than the cannon) warriors, charge another unit of rat ogres (group 3).

Magic phase
Infernal Gateway was casted on the doomwheel blasting it away into the internal depths of oblivion.

Shooting, Cannon finishes off clan rats, leaving the grey seer lonely.
Shaggoth does another 5 wounds to the rat ogres, and only takes one in return. But The RO hold their ground.

The unit that charged the (group 3) unit of rat ogres flees as they are no match for the mighty rat ogres and gets run down

In the combat with Wulfrick vs Queek, they kill each other in mortal combat as they both have initiative 7.

but the stormvermin body guard win combat, and pursue and destroy the mauraders.

The chaos knights kill three rat ogres, losing only two and win combat and pursue and destroy that unit of rat ogres. Leaving on the right flank one unit of unengaged rat ogres (group 4), chaos knights and stormvermin body gaurd

On the left side of the board we have a grey seer, unit of slaves barely breathing, shaggoth, rat ogres groups 1(badly injured) and 3

Slaves dont do anything because well they are too scared to do anything
The grey seer is tired of the other lord, so tried to make him pay.
Movement. Grey seer moves within a 24" range of the other sorcerer and cast the 13 spell.
Ratogre group 3 joins the fight against the dragon, and
Rat ogre group 4 charges the chaos knights, and the stormvermin setup for a charge for the next round.

Magic phase
with all 6 dice seer cast his 13th spell. Yay no miscast, and it goes off. mutating chaos warriors into clanrats. We decided to eject the sorcerer out of the unit, which doesn't bother me, and apparently in the errata, thats what suppose to happen anyways. No matter, just wait to see what happens next.

That ends the magic phase

Shooting phase, the warlock lightning cannon hits and destroys the sorcerer lord.

The rat ogres finish off the Shaggoth, but not before Shaggoth does another 4 wounds.
On the other side, the rat ogres kills remaining Chaos knights leaving the Chaos lord on juggernaut to deal with. They also take several wounds from him. No one breaks.

At this point, the Chaos warriors had only the cannon, and a Chaos lord on juggernaut and decided to conceed.

Though this battle was much closer than it appears, it was very hard fought victory and I learned a few things from it. Hopefully Tyler wont give up on Chaos warriors. I need him to do well in the map campaign that is starting up next thursday.

Cannons are vicious, no guessing, and can place shots exactly where they want (1 out of 6 chance atleast), can be very deadly.

Even though i didn't bring the 18 rat ogre unit, i think splitting them up in 4 groups was well worth it, and probably a lot better outcome. Especially all the terrain we had to deal with.

Im not saying Rat Ogres are the best, but when it comes to skaven stuff, they are pretty good. I just wish they had better Leadership values.

Any suggestions to list ideas, i am very welcomed to having.
It was fun bringing the three lords, even though i didn't have heros, i think they made up for it. I guess i could also have brought a storm banner with the stormvermin. Also i could have gone for a BSB, which could have also helped out a bit. Hmmm....

Friday, July 9, 2010

Builds that I am Considering

Hoping to have my builds built by Thursday, I am considering the following builds. Please advise which builds you like, and why. Or what builds you may like but would change a bit before deploying.

First Build:
1500 Throt the Unclean is hungry, and looking to munch on anything in his way, including Rat ogres. Not a whole lot of magic, could get lucky on what spell i end up with, and i could go with a level 2 PP and drop a unit of slaves just as easy.
Im hoping enemy wont have that much magic either, and hoping the rat ogres can get 21 str 5 attacks in and do some major damage. Also try to use the slaves as rat traps, and try to get people in awkward positions so that my RO can hit their flanks.

1 Throt the Unclean
6 Rat Ogres with 3 Rat Ogre Packmasters
6 Rat Ogres with 3 Rat Ogre Packmasters
1 Plague Priest Magic level 1 with second hand weapon - Plague Furnace
Shadow Magnet Trinket
27 Plague Monks

1 Doomwheel

20 Skavenslaves with Musician
20 Skavenslaves with Musician
20 Skavenslaves with Musician

Total 1500 exact

List 2:
This next list is a queek list. Again not alot of magic, 2 lvls on th Warlock engineer, who will have Magic Missle and one other spell.

1 Queek Head-Taker
30 Stormvermin bodyguard (Who have the +1 str and WS and have the high initiative)
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Shields; Standard; Musician
Banner of the Under-Empire (could swap out with Storm banner)

1 Doomwheel

1 Warp-lightning Warp Cannon

7 Rat Ogres with 1 Masterbred (8 total RO)
4 Rat Ogre Packmasters

1 Warlock Engineer
Magic Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Warp-Energy Condenser

1 Warlock Engineer with Doom Rocket

21 Skavenslaves with Musician
21 Skavenslaves with Musician

Total: 1500

The next one is more of a balanced between some range and close combat.
1 Plague Priest
General; Magic level 1; 2ndWeapon; Plague Furnace
Shadow Magnet Trinket [30.0]

27 Plague Monks w/ Bringer-of-the-Word
2ndWeapon; Standard; Musician
Banner of the Under-Empire

1 Warlock Engineer - Magic Level 2

25 Clanrats
Light Armour; Shields; Standard; Musician

25 Clanrats - Shields; Standard; Musician

22 Skavenslaves with Musician
22 Skavenslaves with Musician
21 Skavenslaves with Musician

5 Warplock Jezzail Teams

1 Warp-lightning Warp Cannon

1 Hellpit Abomination

15 Giant Rats 3 Packmasters (Three ranks of attacks :)

And my Grey Seer list:
1 Grey Seer - General;

1 Chieftain - Shield; Battle Standard (Considering Storm banner or anything else here)

25 Clanrats with Poisoned Wind Mortar

1 Warlock Engineer
Magic Level 1
Warp-Energy Condenser
Doom Rocket

25 Clanrats

20 Skavenslaves
Slave Musician

20 Skavenslaves
Slave Musician

20 Skavenslaves
Slave Musician

8 Rat Ogres with 4 Rat Ogre Packmasters

1 Doomwheel

1 Warp-lightning Warp Cannon

1 Warp-lightning Warp Cannon

Total Army Cost: 1500.0

Ok, slay away, im sure i got a lot of work ahead of me, and once i know who the race im going against i can always tweak whatever list i take. But in general i would like to take what i will be using.

Thursday, July 8, 2010

Warhammer Risk

Today I went to the bunker to play a game of warhammer, and while there they were starting up a "campaign" map quest. Which happens to start next Thursday. They are going to allow players to signup till Tuesday.

Basically there is a huge hex map, probably with 100 locations that a player can start at. We began tonight by drawing numbers to see who can pick their territory first. I got the lucky number 1, and chose a position in the upper left corner, which has less borders to other land area. Though I need to be careful, because I do touch a lot of ocean. Unfortunately two areas down is freaking Scooter who has a nasty Lizard army... He loves running his slann within the temple gaurd.

So from what I understand from the rules in this case is that each army starts at 1500 points and each week every player gets a turn. Which happens on a Thursday. Players are allocated so many movement points. So one can use their movement points to attack other players, claim different resources, build a port from their towns.

The ports allow an army to attack any other army that touches water.
Which is good and bad for me, if I can get a port, I can expand, at same time I need to be able to defend what I have.

Also for each 10 hexadecimals (wide and tall) you own(basically each area is 10 hex wide and tall) you get 100 extra points. So that I can have a 1600 point army if i expand to the development below me which no one has taken yet.

This will be my first event of any kind and should be fun. This will also get me to play at least one game a week, which is what I was hoping and have time for anyways.

Not sure how long this will take, but I already have made some alliances with Tyler, who so happens to be playing Warriors of Chaos, and who I also played against, and will have that battle report up in the next day or so.

When I know more rules, or rules are more clarified, i will have them posted, but for now this is what I know, and I am planning on having fun with it. Now I need to start building those rat ogres:)

Saturday, July 3, 2010

Battle Report #2

My second game was against a kid named Tyler. He also brought Warriors of Chaos.
This time we played just 2000 points. But since I only had the models which I had brought for my earlier game, the list looked very similar, just trimmed down in some aspects.

Skaven (1960): (Didn't reallyl care about matching 2000 even though i guess i could have thrown in an extra unit of slaves.
Lords and Heros:
Throt the unclean
Grey Seer (dispell scroll)
lvl1 Warlock engineer with condenser

18 Rat Ogres with Gnawtooth and a few more pack masters
30 clan rats
20 slaves

Doomwheel, and 2 Warplightning Cannons

Warriors of Chaos(Woc)(2001):
Socerer Lord with infernal book of secrets
lvl 1 wizard, and a fighty hero.

He has a couple units of Chaos warrios,
Mauraders, exalted ones, chaos war hounds, chaos knights. And some unit that can come on the board on a 5+ first round, 4+ second round and so on.

Mutation: gnawtooth rolls a 1, which is regen again for the RO.

1st round:
WoC goes first, and they advance
As for spells, they do get 7 str 7 hits into the Rat Ogres, doing 5 wounds with out me allowing a save. So now im down to 17 Rat Ogres :( ..hehe

Rat ogres move up 6 inches, Doom wheel treads 13 inches and the clanrats are trying to stay safely behind, because he knows that his opponent has a unit that can infiltrate from behind on a 5+ the first turn 4+ the second and so forth.(Not sure what they were called. But the clan rats do move a little up.

Magic (5 + 1):Dont get anything off.
Shooting, the WLC only kill 4 guys total, and the Doomwheel kills one.

2nd Round:
Woc decides to back off a little getting scared of the rat ogres coming thier way, on the flanks though they charge the doomweel, and on the unit of fast cav, try to get closer to one of the WLC.

Magic, I use my dispell scroll on his infernal gateway, out side of that he doesn't do much, and i get lucky on my dispells.

With my Rat Ogres I decide to charge, needing a high roll. Ya, I barely make it, and the rat ogres runs in the unit of chaos warrios that has his lvl 4 sorcerer. The Doomwheel also charges one of his units, which it overruns after destroying (along with taking out three of them with his shooting)

Magic phase, I draw out his dispel scroll with the spell scorch, and with only 2 dice left, i decide to use all three warpstone tokens and the two dice to cast the 13th spell. I rolled a 21 + the 4 levels of the seer, barely making the cut, and since he only had two dice left, and he failed to roll double 6s to dispell it, I use the spell to convert a unit of chaos warrors, and his lvl 1 wizard into clanrats. How nice.

Rat Ogre get 40 attacks at str 5 at his unit, and ends up doing a whopping 19 wounds. Which destroys the unit. And instead of over running, I reform and face his last unit that can do anything.
And as described above Doomwheel destroys the flanking units of the WoC.

At which point, Tyler decides to concedes the battle.

Again WoC didn't have any shooting, just combat, and my rat ogres were too much for him. Also his 'infiltrators' never did make it onto the board. Though they probably would have if the match went three rounds

Battle Report #1

Now that I have started to write about Warhammer events, I will be reporting on hopefully all my Warhammer battles.

Friday July 2nd I was able to get in two games in 3 hours vs two different opponents who coincidently had the same Army race (Warriors of Chaos) And since I had only brought my one list (modified some because of different point values for the games) I had a better understanding of what I could do going into the battles.

Originally I brought 2750 points, but neither opponent had that many models or enough stuff to proxy for more so I had to cut down my list to fit around the number of points they each had.

So without further ado Battle Report #1
My first battle this month was with a man named Joe who had brought his Chaos Warriors to battle. At first I was worried, because one, I never fought Warriors of Chaos before, and had no idea what they could do, and how to go about them. Apparently they are a very good close combat army. And of course Skaven are not known for this, so we shall see what happens.

So for the first battle my opponent had 2264 points army, well after cutting my down a bunch i didn't want to bother trying to match that total so I took around 2100 with the following

The List:
Skaven ( 2139 )

Throt The Unclean
Grey Seer (Which I took pretty naked as far as items)
Spells: Scorch, Warp lightning, Plague, and 13th

#1 Warlock Engineer(lvl 1) with Warplock Condenser and Dispell scroll
Spells: Warp Lightning
#2 Warlock Engineer(lvl 0) with Doom rocket --One purpose, to get that rocket off
Chieftain /BSB

18 Rat Ogres with Packmasters and Gnawtooth (special packmaster)
30 Clanrats Full command
20 Slaves
20 slaves

2x Warp Lightning Cannons

Warriors of Chaos ( 2264 )

Sorcerer Lord
Chaos Lord

BSB with Banner of Wrath
and others

3 Very large units of Chaos warriors which were full command two with mark of Khorne, another with Mark of Tzeentch

He also had Chaos Knights Full command Mark of Khorne.

He also another unit of Maruder Horsemen that had the Mark of Nurgle.

On deployment:
I laid out my Doomwheel on my right flank coupled with a unit of skaven slaves, had warplightning cannons one on each back corner. Rat Ogres(Throt) up the middle, with the Clanrats (Seer, #1 Warlock Engineer) of to its right side, and the other unit of slaves on its left.

Warriors of Chaos:
He basically had his calvary units on each flank, and had all his chaos warriors up front. Each housing a Lord or Hero, also a Hero with his heavy cav,

Mutation: From Gnawtooth, a 2 was rolled which means Regeneration to the Rat Ogres Unit.

First Turn:
WoC go First:
They mainly advance as far as they could, as they want to get into melee combat as quick as possible. He did take 1 str 4 hit from the forest he tried walking through.
During his magic phase (5 + 2), he does pull out my Dispel Scroll on a successful cast of his attempt at Infernal Gateway. All other spells were dispelled.

I had my Doomwheel go forward, matched up against one of his calvary amd my Rat Ogres advances.
During the shooting, my Doomwheel kills at a str 8 2 of his calvary, and then for my warp lightning cannons, I did a special number, by landing the template exactly on top of his heavy cav (which take out 4 of the 6 of them) and in the middle of a unit of chaos warriors, which took out 11 of them. (Never been this successful with cannons before), and then i fired off my doom rocket, I way over estimated the shot, he was 15 inches away so i threw 5 dice, and well, the doom rocket went 27 inches... ya, the forest behind him burnt down in flames.

During my magic phase (5+2),(I channel an extra 2 dice and get another from condenser for a total of 10 for me, 5 dispel dice for him)I get off scorch which takes out another 10 of his chaos warriors.

Post Round 1 analysis,Warriors of chaos were not happy campers. I took out close to 400 points on my first turn, and we haven't even gotten into close combat yet.

Round 2:
He decides now that he is in range, to charge my rat ogres with a unit of Chaos Warriors (which had a sorcerer in) and his Marauder Horsemen that had a chaos Lord, and one Horsemen (i might be confusing his unit between horsemen and knights as i don't know Warriors of chaos at all)
He also decides to charge a slave unit with another unit of chaos warriors.

Magic phase he doesn't get anything off.
We start with the big rat ogre vs his two units. Now Rat Ogres are only initiative 4, so he gets all his attacks in first. He ends up making 5 wounds, but all but one was saved due to regeneration on the rat ogres.
Now the rat ogres get to attack back (60 attacks at str 5) I dedicate 20 attacks (10 to his chaos lord, 10 to his "rank and file" cav. Then 40 attacks against the Chaos Warrior Unit. Overall I get 22 wounds, His chaos lord survives, but other than that a lot of damage is done to the Chaos Warriors. He loses combat and flees, i am able to run down his unit of Chaos warriors who rolled a 2 for flees(double 1s..ouch) but come up short for pursuing his chaos lord by one inch. (his three dice he rolled a 7, and i rolled a 6 on pursuit on 2 dice.

As for the slaves combat, they were able to luckily do 3 wounds to his Chaos Warriors, but then explode in delight doing another 4 str 4 hit but only wounding with one of them.

Doomwheel turns and charges his horsemen (destroying all but 1 which flees) and my rat ogres also goes and attacks another unit of Choas warriors, basically destroying that unit as well.

Magic, I only got off a warp lightning bolt doing 4 wounds. and my shooting with cannons only took out a couple more guys, but nothing special like the first round.

By the end of my turn, Choas warriors had lost both his Lords, and one of his heros, and he decided it was time to shake hands.

Overall I think the Throt Ogre combination in 8th edition is quite awesome. At movement 6 and initiative 4 , they can get around which is nice. Complementing with the grey seer for magic defense and some offense. But my focus was to use the Ogres to kill and pursue. Also I got quite lucky with the warp lightning cannons. And doomwheel finally didn't die.

Friday, July 2, 2010

Not another basement blog...

Ever since I started this blog, there has been one driving motivation. To get a basement so that I can play Warhammer there. Now the question is why haven't I blogged anything about my Warhammer experiences? Well Thats about to change. Especially now that my group of friends that do play Warhammer are having a friendly competition to see who can blog the most about tabletop games such as Warhammer, play the most games, build the most terrains/models, and paint the most models. A point for each of those categories is awarded each month. (of course it is stated that quality is better than quantity, so someone can go spray paint a hundred models, vs someone detailing a very nice single model.

The competitors:
Steve (his blog)
Ben (at his blog)
Nathan (at his blog)
BK (Dont know the site here)
Frans (My self here)
Rob (at his blog)

Now people have been complaining because they think I have all this time to blog and play, well I beg to differ. We all have the same 24 hours in a day, some just choose to prioritize less time to hobbies than others. It is not like I dont have a life, in fact I have two children who I take care of, a beautiful wife who I serve all the meanwhile of having a full time job. Soo people, stop complaining, and game on!!!!!!!
(oh and +1 for this entry :) )